MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Picture this. It's the 1990s. You're living in Moscow, post-Soviet Russia. There is money to be made, power to be grabbed and wielded. That's the backdrop for the new movie "The Wizard Of The Kremlin." It's based on a novel of the same name, which charts the rise of Russia's real-life President Vladimir Putin and of a fictional character named Vadim Baranov, who rises from obscurity to become Putin's right-hand man. Paul Dano plays Vadim, aka, the wizard of the Kremlin. Paul Dano, welcome.
PAUL DANO: Hi, Mary Louise.
KELLY: Hi. So Vadim, as I noted - the character you're playing is fictional, but am I right in thinking he was inspired by a very real Kremlin aide, Vladislav Surkov?
DANO: Yes. So this film originates from a book, a very wonderful book by Giuliano da Empoli. He based part of the character of Vadim Baranov on Vladislav Surkov, who you can read about and is a very interesting, complex figure. But it is not just Vadim Baranov. So my work in preparation was not only studying Surkov but sort of many men of power and influence in that sphere, especially in the sort of philosophical political space. And one of the big differences between my character and Surkov, and why I could not just base it on Surkov, is their backstory is really different. And...
KELLY: OK.
DANO: For some reason, it was important to the author and then the screenwriters to represent a male figure who has seen his previous male figures sort of be swallowed by Russia. So my character's grandfather was an aristocrat who fell to the Bolsheviks, and his father was sort of a good boy communist who then fell with communism. And so that's a very different setup from Surkov. And as an actor, that's just an incredibly important point of view to embrace because...
KELLY: Well, 'cause you need to know...
DANO: ...What that says to me is...
KELLY: ...The whole backstory. Yeah...
DANO: Yeah. It's a person who...
KELLY: ...To figure out who you're playing.
DANO: ...Doesn't want to be lost to their times, but a person who wants to be a part of them.
KELLY: Well, and I've reported from Russia. I've spent a lot of time reading and studying about Russia and its history and current politics. I was not familiar with Surkov. Were you before?
DANO: I was not. I was not. I did study some Russian literature in college, actually, and I did a BBC miniseries of "War And Peace," the Tolstoy novel, which I think is, you know, maybe the greatest novel ever written, and I loved it. And I got to spend some time in Russia, working on that. This was quite a long time ago. But no, Surkov certainly operated from the shadows.
KELLY: So your costar in the film is Jude Law, playing Vladimir Putin. I thought he totally nailed Putin's walk...
DANO: Yeah.
KELLY: ...The cold stare, the mannerisms. It did make me wonder which is harder as an actor. Yeah. I can see the challenge of playing someone as famous as Vladimir Putin and trying to nail him without tipping into caricature.
DANO: Right.
KELLY: I can also see the challenge of playing a character like Vadim, where you've got a blank slate.
DANO: Yes. Well, to Jude's credit, I think, what a challenge, and I think he met it so well. I loved working with him. He's also a wonderful collaborator. And I don't know that one is more challenging, which is not the most fun answer. But what I mean is there's something really nice about trying to capture somebody else's essence and having a model for that, having research, having all these sort of resources and vibrations. And then there's also something really wonderful about creating somebody probably more from your imagination, yourself, your intuition. And so I know whenever I've played somebody who is real, I get a lot from it, actually. I quite enjoy that, but I wouldn't want it to be every time out.
KELLY: The movie takes us to St. Petersburg and inside the Internet Research Agency, the troll farm that was real but created fake social media posts and all kinds of disinformation to try to influence foreign politics. Americans, of course, will remember the 2016 U.S. presidential election and all of the things we were learning about the Internet Research Agency. Your character delivered a sermon on the way out of the troll farm in St. Petersburg, and he says something I want you to explain. He says, it's like a wire - you twist it one way and then the other way until it breaks. Explain.
DANO: Well, that's a great question, Mary Louise. So what I get from that now is, it wasn't just about political ideology, meaning not just pushing left or pushing right. It's about pushing both ways. And I think you are creating weakness, especially by sort of - not inciting violence, but anger, resentment, contempt, you know, the divide - I think maybe the weaker the middle will become.
KELLY: Yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about the ending, without giving anything away about the ending. I think it is fair to say your character, Vadim, seems, by the end, to regret his role as spin doctor, regret his role in elevating Putin to power. Is that fair?
DANO: Yes. I think so, but I want to be careful with that because I think it was important for us - and I think the film accomplishes this in the end - not to forgive him or overask for sympathy from the audience, if that makes sense.
KELLY: Meaning what? - that he owns what he did?
DANO: No. I don't quite think he does. I think there's an act of atonement in telling his story, but I also think that this is a person who would love to be a book on his shelf someday. And so - and just while we're going towards the end of the film, I want to highlight one moment in which I'd be curious if you felt this. But I found it particularly interesting to watch him play with his daughter.
KELLY: Yeah. Yeah.
DANO: And for me, when I saw the film, I realized it was also a film about complicity in some way. And I think that moment gave that to me because how many people in the world are making decisions that we might not only disagree with, but then are going home to their, you know, partner or child or dog. And it's a very hard thing to put together.
KELLY: Do you mean the contrast between the complicity of all of the dirty business that he got involved with, and then going home to the innocence and beauty of the love with his young daughter?
DANO: I do, and I think I mean it's a lot easier for us to just see for something to just be good or bad. And I found it just sort of, that late in the film, challenging to watch him play with his daughter.
KELLY: And see all the goodness that was in there somewhere.
DANO: Maybe. Yeah. I don't even want to go that far with him but, you know, yes (laughter).
KELLY: Well, and I guess what intrigued me is, you know, we were talking about the troll farm and fake information, disinformation, trying to influence foreign politics. If you're Vladimir Putin, it worked out, right? He got what he wanted.
DANO: That's true. That's true. Yeah. (Laughter) It's tough. It's tough. Yeah.
KELLY: Paul Dano, talking about the new movie "Wizard Of The Kremlin" in which he plays the wizard. Paul Dano, this was fun. Thank you.
DANO: OK. Thanks, Mary Louise. Yeah.
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